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Ed Murphy
12-21-2011, 02:38 PM
Just seen a article in Disc Golfer about par 5's just thought it would make a good topic for discussion anyone have any thoughts on this??????

Adam
12-21-2011, 05:04 PM
I saw they had an article in there about par 5's, but I haven't got a chance to read it yet. With Old E gone (may it rest in peace) there are only two par 5's in the area, hole 18 at CV and hole 15 at SL.

At only 612ft, the par 5 at CV is relatively short but technical and the 1011ft par 5 at SL is more of a distance challenge. The scoring spread is probably greater at CV because it's seen more eagle 3's, but the rough and OB can stack up fast leading to a 6 or 7. The distance and elevation changes at SL are the major factors of that par 5, but the rough is particularly threatening off the tee.

I love legitimate par 4's and 5's. If designed well, they bring a whole new dimension to a course that par 3's don't.

jobwilson82
12-21-2011, 05:51 PM
What's the distance to the mando on 18?

LtDan914
12-21-2011, 05:57 PM
What's the distance to the mando on 18?

According to Google Earth, it is 300' with about 25' of elevation change. 300+25*3=375'. So, it plays like 375' to the mando. In my experience, that sounds about right.

weeman
12-21-2011, 06:17 PM
If you expand out to other cities in the region, Idlewild is really the only place I can think of that has any par 5s. Nothing else in the NKY/Cincy, Lexington, BG, Evansville/Owensboro area has any.

I agree with Adam that the focus of the design should be to reward good/great shots and still punish mediocre/bad shots. Great shots should be able to set you up for an eagle but anything worse shouldn't allow you to have that same look. In thinking about the 1000+ footer at Idlewild, two great dives can set you up for a putt/short up but a bad shot there can leave you OB. Same thing about number 18 (651') out there; two great shots can put you on the green whereas even without a big arm, smart course management can yield a birdie.

Adam
12-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Good point Wyatt, there aren't many par 5's at all. Of the 133 course I've played only 6 of them have one or more par 5's.

Here's a list of the other par 5's I've played besides the ones at CV, SL and Idlewild:
Foundation Park, Centralia, IL has five holes listed as par 5 from the longs.
Highbridge Hills Gold course has two par 5's and one 1325ft par 6.
Highbridge Hills The Bear has one par 5.

All in all we have quite a few par 5's around here, but I'm sure there's room for more : )

weeman
12-21-2011, 08:56 PM
Think I've played 15 courses with Par 5's out of the 130 I've been to. Always looking for more!

I see the way of course designs incorporating more par 4s and par 5s in the future. Whether they be of the technical nature of something like hole 18 at Idlewild/anything in Charlotte,NC or the big bombs of Old English/Severin, they definitely have a place in the game for serious players. They add an element of strategy/risk-reward that pitch-n-putts nor even intermediate courses can't fathom.

MarcusGresham
12-21-2011, 10:14 PM
I'm all for a par 5 here and there and I like the par 4s at Seviren (well, except for #9) but if you go making a course full of them you are making a course that's only good for the big arms. I think every course needs a few holes that are also in the 250'-275' range to at least give the majority of players the hope of being able to get an ace.

My argument with #9 is that an average arm doesn't have a second shot. If I have a poor throw I deserve to be punished, but I can have a really good (for me,) throw and not have a second shot except something that just kind of flops around the big tree in hopes of landing in the middle.

Ed Murphy
12-22-2011, 12:06 AM
i don't like long just to be long.this is golf not a distance contest. i do like par4's and 5's with placement shots, give the big arms some risk and reward.

MarcusGresham
12-22-2011, 09:17 AM
i don't like long just to be long.this is golf not a distance contest. i do like par4's and 5's with placement shots, give the big arms some risk and reward.

Totally agree. I think some of our longer holes are exactly that way----#2 & #4 at Seviren are perfect examples. On #2 the big arms can let it fly in hopes of getting to the top of the hill and having a look at the basket, but if they go too far they're in the fence line (maybe even OB,) or if they get too far to either side they'll be in the mess. Four is very similar, as it gets pretty narrow near the "arch". I just think if you don't have a big arm there has to be a route for you, too, and I'm not sure #9 has that.

Ironman
12-22-2011, 12:13 PM
According to Google Earth, it is 300' with about 25' of elevation change. 300+25*3=375'. So, it plays like 375' to the mando. In my experience, that sounds about right.

Actually its "A" squared + "B" squared = "C" squared.
300' sq + 25' sq = 301' 15/32"

weeman
12-22-2011, 12:42 PM
I see what you're getting at but course designers generally use this as a guideline for measuring relative (or effective) distance. Here's a link to the PDGA boards that further explains it.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=17848

Take hole 2 at CV where say the elevation difference isn't much off of hole 18, its listed as 270 but pretty much everyone that is trying to reach the green (pros included) will be throwing a driver. 270+(3*25) = 345' versus (270^2)+(25^2)=(271.15^2). That's a large difference on how far you're huking it up there. Its just a rule of thumb though on design and isn't applicable in all situations.

LtDan914
12-22-2011, 01:16 PM
For every foot of elevation change add or subtract 3 feet of distance. That is generally what the hole will play like.

Ironman
12-22-2011, 03:51 PM
I see what you're getting at but course designers generally use this as a guideline for measuring relative (or effective) distance. Here's a link to the PDGA boards that further explains it.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=17848

Take hole 2 at CV where say the elevation difference isn't much off of hole 18, its listed as 270 but pretty much everyone that is trying to reach the green (pros included) will be throwing a driver. 270+(3*25) = 345' versus (270^2)+(25^2)=(271.15^2). That's a large difference on how far you're huking it up there. Its just a rule of thumb though on design and isn't applicable in all situations.

BAH, thats too complicated.

jworley
12-22-2011, 03:55 PM
I really enjoy the par 4's at SL. One can only hope this is the direction the game is headed Im sure when some of the older course's were built what we look at now as par 3 were par 4. Also no love for The Green Monster (hole 5) at Mt. Airy 700 foot dog leg right road OB the length of the hole. I think a few of you have played this and probally forgot about it or consider it a 4. I think its a legit 5. If I were to design a course I would really only want one maybe two legit par five's, then have alot of par 4's. If you were creating a venue for NT's then more par five's would be Ideal.

Adam
12-22-2011, 05:36 PM
I think Mt. Airy has changed since I was last there. I looked at my scorecard from when I played there in 2009 and hole 10 was the 700ft hole not hole 5. Is that the same hole just with different numbering?

At any rate I agree with you, a lot holes we think of as par 3 now used to be par 4's. I bet Otter had a number of par 4's if you're using a wham-o or aviar.

weeman
12-22-2011, 05:54 PM
Adam, yeah the numbering at Airy is different. "Old" number 1 is now number 14 and "new" number 1 is old number 6. It starts off next to the pro shop now.

bwilson217
12-25-2011, 10:04 PM
I think that Hole #9 at SL is my favorite there because it is a "true" Par 4. It takes an accurate long drive (or two) to get to the tunnel, a throw down the pipe, and a putt at the basket. Great hole.

I think that I read somewhere above that someone hopes this is the direction the sport is headed in, I couldn't agree more. I think SL really brings the "golf" aspect to the table, rather than having birdie opportunities every hole. When disc golf hits the mainstream, I'm sure we will see more courses like SL.